1 00:00:04,110 --> 00:00:13,150 this is need to know real talk about the reality of unidentified aerial phenomenon from australia 2 00:00:13,150 --> 00:00:20,220 ross coltart from the us bryce zabel we're so glad to be here with you this week we're 3 00:00:20,220 --> 00:00:24,949 energized about so many things i'm bryce abel coming at you from just north of hollywood 4 00:00:24,949 --> 00:00:29,740 out here in a part of the world that has its share of problems but manages to balance them 5 00:00:29,740 --> 00:00:34,149 out with some of the greatest weather on the entire planet and my hotshot partner ross 6 00:00:34,149 --> 00:00:39,150 coldheart is joining us this week from his own undisclosed location up in australia's 7 00:00:39,150 --> 00:00:45,219 snowy mountains where he has managed to wrangle the internet there into submission earth man 8 00:00:45,219 --> 00:00:50,490 to the man from snowy river can you hear me g'day bryce how are you mate it's beautiful 9 00:00:50,490 --> 00:00:54,770 up here this is where australians come to ski it's also where if you remember that beautiful 10 00:00:54,770 --> 00:01:00,699 movie the man from snowy river this is where the whole thing was shot i had the wild grumpy 11 00:01:00,699 --> 00:01:23,980 horses charging through the bush [Music] [Applause] 12 00:01:23,980 --> 00:01:30,869 this is the scrubby gum eucalypt country where all this was filmed and it's truly beautiful 13 00:01:30,869 --> 00:01:36,159 absolutely beautiful and the last night there was a wombat outside my window going 14 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:42,820 well you realize ross i you know i just should warn you as an american we're all very well 15 00:01:42,820 --> 00:01:48,970 of uh aware of the fact that almost everything in australia can kill a person so be careful 16 00:01:48,970 --> 00:01:53,890 so we thought it would be a good idea this week to have a look at the issue of congressional 17 00:01:53,890 --> 00:01:59,899 hearings into uaps as you know there were promises made around about the time of the 18 00:01:59,899 --> 00:02:05,170 tendering of the report to congress on uaps back in july last year that there may well 19 00:02:05,170 --> 00:02:10,340 be a public hearing into this matter so this week we're going to have a close look at the 20 00:02:10,340 --> 00:02:16,250 history of public hearings into uaps and whether there's any chance that's likely to happen 21 00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:19,950 well there's certainly a lot of talk about it and that's going to make it a very interesting 22 00:02:19,950 --> 00:02:25,600 show for me because i i think if that actually happens i mean all the bets are off um you 23 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,440 know though let's do a little news and review this week one of the things that caught my 24 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,890 attention and this just happened a couple of days ago is that uh putin talking about 25 00:02:34,890 --> 00:02:39,989 ukraine started doing what he does so well which is threatening people and and i just 26 00:02:39,989 --> 00:02:45,470 have to read you this quote that that comes straight from vladimir putin's mouth he said 27 00:02:45,470 --> 00:02:51,110 if someone decides to intervene in current of uh events in ukraine from the outside and 28 00:02:51,110 --> 00:02:56,950 creates unacceptable strategic threats to russia then they must know that our response 29 00:02:56,950 --> 00:03:03,019 our retaliatory strikes will be lightning fast quick we have all the tools for this 30 00:03:03,019 --> 00:03:08,900 he said and here's the part that gets me such that no one else can boast of right now and 31 00:03:08,900 --> 00:03:14,290 we won't brag but we'll use them if needed and everyone should know about it all the 32 00:03:14,290 --> 00:03:19,690 decisions in this regard have already been made now that's just creepy talk it would 33 00:03:19,690 --> 00:03:24,300 be bloody funny if it wasn't so dangerous i mean he putin really does sound like dr 34 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:30,409 evil doesn't he come some kind of snickering madman in his elusive lair but that talk of 35 00:03:30,409 --> 00:03:36,430 some kind of weaponry some kind of technology that has yet not been seen by this world it 36 00:03:36,430 --> 00:03:40,890 is quite ominous and as you know mate there's a lot of talk about that at the american end 37 00:03:40,890 --> 00:03:45,409 you know there's been a lot of gossip and rumor for years that uh you know what brought 38 00:03:45,409 --> 00:03:50,920 the cold war to the end was uh that uh you know there was even talk that was a demonstration 39 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:56,580 of technology by the americans to the then soviets to show them about the futility of 40 00:03:56,580 --> 00:04:01,860 think thinking of using nuclear weapons well but frankly we just don't know we certainly 41 00:04:01,860 --> 00:04:07,879 assume that when putin is talking he's probably talking about his nuclear weapons or his hypersonic 42 00:04:07,879 --> 00:04:14,680 missiles but given that need to know is a program about uap i only wonder if the russians 43 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:20,340 actually had uap that either fell into their hands or they reverse engineered or even that 44 00:04:20,340 --> 00:04:25,210 they created on their own and they were responsible for uap do you think they would have already 45 00:04:25,210 --> 00:04:28,610 used these weapons yeah that's what i was going to say i was going to say don't you 46 00:04:28,610 --> 00:04:31,930 think they would have used them by now if they had them and that's what a lot of people 47 00:04:31,930 --> 00:04:37,560 say too about the united states but if it's true that they have recovered technology but 48 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,930 just haven't been able to back engineer it maybe that's the explanation for both of these 49 00:04:41,930 --> 00:04:46,159 countries maybe they've got stuff sitting at a shed somewhere in a very dark cave in 50 00:04:46,159 --> 00:04:51,680 the urals and area 51 that they just don't know how to replicate well it's very interesting 51 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:56,330 if there are congressional hearings someday obviously they're going to be called primarily 52 00:04:56,330 --> 00:05:00,780 because of the national security implications and the very things that you and i are just 53 00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:05,740 talking right now would be you know on the agenda at the top of the agenda here's from 54 00:05:05,740 --> 00:05:11,740 the uh from the threatening to the semi ridiculous there's another piece of news out there this 55 00:05:11,740 --> 00:05:16,650 week the debris friends over at the debrief were talking about how they had uh seen a 56 00:05:16,650 --> 00:05:23,979 video on youtube where it purports to show two separate ufos flying around on mars okay 57 00:05:23,979 --> 00:05:29,000 and and in pictures taken by the perseverance rover as it uh winds its way through those 58 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:35,110 rock fields on its way to i think it was called jazzaro river delta and you know these are 59 00:05:35,110 --> 00:05:40,650 photos that get people all gendered up and excited and they don't really help uh disclosure 60 00:05:40,650 --> 00:05:45,500 do they well they don't because nasa came out very quickly and and essentially asserted 61 00:05:45,500 --> 00:05:51,800 that they were a hoax that they were probably videos that had been touched up by space enthusiasts 62 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,710 who've made these type of images for fun and look bryce the thing that really gets me about 63 00:05:56,710 --> 00:06:05,940 this is as edgar mitchell showed my friend the spaceman there are indeed absolutely undoubtedly 64 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:13,050 genuine authentic nasa videos films from the apollo program films from the shuttle program 65 00:06:13,050 --> 00:06:21,110 that record anomalous objects that are genuinely puzzling and the thing that gets me is every 66 00:06:21,110 --> 00:06:26,520 time there's an attempt to try to focus on those authentic videos where they do appear 67 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:36,400 to be craft objects intelligently moving objects that are moving in relation to the craft that 68 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:42,400 the the the humans are in it it's always that there always seems to be a hoax that bob's 69 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,690 up in the custard that distracts the public and and essentially denigrates the whole issue 70 00:06:47,690 --> 00:06:54,310 and i just think it's time the the ufo social media world grew up and stopped recycling 71 00:06:54,310 --> 00:07:00,740 these things until we know for sure that they're authentic i mean i i think frankly before 72 00:07:00,740 --> 00:07:08,090 that youtube video was circulated around ufo twitter it should have been verified and it 73 00:07:08,090 --> 00:07:12,740 should have gone through an authentication process don't you agree well i mean if we 74 00:07:12,740 --> 00:07:16,660 could figure out how to do it by the way i just have to say i live for the moments where 75 00:07:16,660 --> 00:07:21,850 you throw out something so casually like bob's up in the custard i mean i live for that that's 76 00:07:21,850 --> 00:07:27,900 my my favorite thing but i will say about those it does i do i am optimistic that nasa 77 00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:33,260 as it is currently constituted under its new administrator bill nelson the former senator 78 00:07:33,260 --> 00:07:39,560 from florida um seems to be pursuing a little more openness than nasa has before where it 79 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,920 was always plausible deniability not our problem don't ask us so maybe we will start to get 80 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,440 some of those answers in the future um so we can we can be optimistic you know there's 81 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:54,170 one other thing though i almost feel like we've talked about this next one so many times 82 00:07:54,170 --> 00:07:59,180 on the show but it's talking about bobbing up in the custard this one is at the top of 83 00:07:59,180 --> 00:08:05,000 the custard and it seems like every week and that is uh people in ufology sort of arguing 84 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,370 amongst themselves and sudden and somehow luella zondo's name is always in the middle 85 00:08:09,370 --> 00:08:16,680 of it now there's a story this week um about how brian bender from politico and stephen 86 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:22,330 green street from i believe he's from the new york place close excuse me yeah of course 87 00:08:22,330 --> 00:08:26,729 both are saying they were deceived what do you know about this okay look there's there's 88 00:08:26,729 --> 00:08:33,430 a couple of issues here firstly it goes back to when chris mellon and louis lozando first 89 00:08:33,430 --> 00:08:38,180 bobbed up in the custard talking about atip talking about the fact that there was as harry 90 00:08:38,180 --> 00:08:43,159 reid revealed and and in fact as brian bender was instrumental in revealing there was this 91 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:49,530 program called atip which was investigating uaps and brian was one of the first to break 92 00:08:49,530 --> 00:08:57,330 that on his excellent news website politico now what brian has said is arguably correct 93 00:08:57,330 --> 00:09:05,260 which is that yes both melon and elizondo played down the fact that there was a broader 94 00:09:05,260 --> 00:09:11,600 program called orsap that was funded by the defense intelligence agency which was essentially 95 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:18,890 looking at woo stuff the skin walker ranch it was looking at anomalous paranormal phenomena 96 00:09:18,890 --> 00:09:27,029 on the skin walker ranch and what i think brian's suggesting is that melon and elizondo 97 00:09:27,029 --> 00:09:35,279 played down the woo the paranormal and focused on the ufo material because they didn't think 98 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:39,970 that the congress and indeed a lot of people in the public who they're trying to swing 99 00:09:39,970 --> 00:09:45,500 to take this issue seriously they didn't think they made a calculated judgment i suspect 100 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:51,490 that people aren't ready to talk about paranormal phenomena whereas they are prepared to consider 101 00:09:51,490 --> 00:09:57,750 the possibility the probability of anomalous intelligently controlled objects in the skies 102 00:09:57,750 --> 00:10:05,370 doing things that are beyond known human science now brian bender believes that he was misled 103 00:10:05,370 --> 00:10:09,450 that essentially and in fact what's his name green street has gone even further he said 104 00:10:09,450 --> 00:10:15,280 he felt he was deceived frankly i i think stephen greenstreet and i think also one of 105 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,210 his colleagues john greenwald there may be maybe overdoing it a little bit giving it 106 00:10:20,210 --> 00:10:26,420 a bit too much stick the the the bottom line is yeah okay i i accept that elizondo and 107 00:10:26,420 --> 00:10:33,480 melon probably downplayed the uh the real purpose of orsap and left the public focused 108 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:40,420 on the idea that this was a ufo investigation program but frankly really who cares i mean 109 00:10:40,420 --> 00:10:46,140 seriously does this really matter it's it's what we call inside baseball uh you know and 110 00:10:46,140 --> 00:10:51,100 let's give uh bender a little break here he he started this on twitter and then it kind 111 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:55,430 of grew green street strikes me as a slightly different deal i mean here's a guy that had 112 00:10:55,430 --> 00:11:01,400 a very successful uh show slash podcast or whatever on youtube last year where he and 113 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:07,510 nick pope uh opined about the whole uap issue and what green street is in essence saying 114 00:11:07,510 --> 00:11:12,440 goes a step beyond anything bender has said green street's saying you know what i kind 115 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:17,040 of bought into this whole thing for a couple of years and now i have grave doubts and i'm 116 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,769 restarting my show which is the equivalent of you and i saying you know we like these 117 00:11:21,769 --> 00:11:25,579 first 12 episodes of need to know that we've done but we're going to stop for a month and 118 00:11:25,579 --> 00:11:30,360 when we come back we don't believe any of the stuff we told you in the last 12 episodes 119 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,720 so i i think it's radical and i'm i'm interested to follow him only because i want to see what 120 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:43,810 his logic is for all of that yeah look i i yeah i mean i've i i personally i i don't 121 00:11:43,810 --> 00:11:49,529 i just don't think it it warrants that much of a worry frankly i mean i i i truly don't 122 00:11:49,529 --> 00:11:56,019 care the bigger issue for me where i think also green street and john greenwald have 123 00:11:56,019 --> 00:12:01,780 jumped on this issue as well has been the towing and throwing in the last week either 124 00:12:01,780 --> 00:12:07,980 whether the department of defense director of intelligence gary reed as was revealed 125 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:15,470 by our friend and colleague tim mcmillan on the debrief whether he was fired or not well 126 00:12:15,470 --> 00:12:19,210 this is where i think brian bender was a bit of what we would call in australia a bit of 127 00:12:19,210 --> 00:12:25,139 a cranky pants because brian did a bit of a put down on josh boswell from the daily 128 00:12:25,139 --> 00:12:31,370 mail and a lovely fella called christopher sharp from the liberation times in the uk 129 00:12:31,370 --> 00:12:37,750 both of whom followed up on this gary reed story and in fact elizondo gave i think a 130 00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:44,430 large part of the detail of the circumstances of gary reed being moved sideways inside the 131 00:12:44,430 --> 00:12:51,790 defence department to both josh boswell from the daily mail and christopher sharp from 132 00:12:51,790 --> 00:12:56,110 the liberation times and there was a bit of a smackdown from brian that i don't think 133 00:12:56,110 --> 00:13:01,300 he necessarily intended to be seen to be doing but basically it made brian sound perhaps 134 00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:06,260 unintentionally as if he was sort of saying look only the establishment media like politico 135 00:13:06,260 --> 00:13:10,800 should be allowed to cover the story and and i think he said something like you know people 136 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:16,529 shouldn't talk to the daily mail and just to explain the reason he said that is because 137 00:13:16,529 --> 00:13:22,410 a lot of us in journalism get pissed off frankly because the daily mail does rip off other 138 00:13:22,410 --> 00:13:27,810 journalists journalism all the time and it doesn't credit for it and it's outrageously 139 00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:33,480 bad at this it it breaches copy it breaches copyright all the time and frankly it's it's 140 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:38,269 actually improper and unethical that what they do but i didn't see any evidence that 141 00:13:38,269 --> 00:13:44,110 josh boswell was doing that he correctly attributed in his daily mail story for the excellent 142 00:13:44,110 --> 00:13:51,000 work that was broken by tim mcmillan in the debrief and and frankly it is still very important 143 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:58,589 and i think the big issue to me frankly is that gary reed's moving sideways from the 144 00:13:58,589 --> 00:14:05,970 di position is incredibly significant because firstly louis lozando had complained about 145 00:14:05,970 --> 00:14:11,630 this guy when i first met lou in person last year around about this time last year he complained 146 00:14:11,630 --> 00:14:17,170 to the inspector general of the defense department about gary reed's behavior because he felt 147 00:14:17,170 --> 00:14:22,140 that he was being what we say in australia whiteheaded by gary reed and other people 148 00:14:22,140 --> 00:14:27,720 in the pentagon that they were undermining his position his past role as the head of 149 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,839 the ufo program and they were casting doubt in the minds of certain journalists sowing 150 00:14:32,839 --> 00:14:41,060 the night the idea that elizondo was essentially lying about his role running the ufo program 151 00:14:41,060 --> 00:14:49,110 now we now know absolutely categorically that elizondo was running the ufo program and and 152 00:14:49,110 --> 00:14:55,520 why why the defense department why the pentagon played this [\h__\h] game i do not know all 153 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:00,920 it's done is make them look ridiculous well the game is game time is running out on the 154 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,579 pentagon for that kind of behavior i mean the whole thing makes me remember raising 155 00:15:05,579 --> 00:15:10,000 my kids where it was like you know the best advice was like kids behave and if you don't 156 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:16,540 i'm gonna put you in the corner you know i i i just feel like uh people need to you know 157 00:15:16,540 --> 00:15:20,360 bring the the game up a little but it is good that we're able to talk about the journalism 158 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,170 and what's going on you know we want to try one other thing here oh go go ahead can i 159 00:15:24,170 --> 00:15:28,740 can i just come back for a moment though bryce what i think is really important and the reason 160 00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:34,079 the gary reid's story is still being missed in the mainstream national media this is the 161 00:15:34,079 --> 00:15:41,210 guy that presided over the debacle the intelligence debacle in afghanistan where the american 162 00:15:41,210 --> 00:15:46,500 military falsely assumed that the afghanistan army would be able to hold its position and 163 00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:53,970 stop kabul from falling but more importantly it was gary reed who was taking over the role 164 00:15:53,970 --> 00:16:02,779 of running the new oversight office the aoi msg that was meant to be providing the ongoing 165 00:16:02,779 --> 00:16:09,790 transparency and oversight now that's the issue the fact that gary reed the person who 166 00:16:09,790 --> 00:16:14,889 has now been essentially sacked from his role as the director of intelligence in the u.s 167 00:16:14,889 --> 00:16:22,100 defense department even though elizondo had complained about him as early as april may 168 00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:29,410 last year he was still put in charge of the aoi msg the ridiculously named acronym for 169 00:16:29,410 --> 00:16:37,860 the uap um uh well transparency group um and that's the issue to me why the hell did the 170 00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:43,370 defense department put a bloke like that who was already the subject of a complaint hearing 171 00:16:43,370 --> 00:16:48,680 in charge of what is potentially the biggest story the pentagon's going sure and why aren't 172 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:53,230 more people reporting it and why did it take a sexual harassment claim to really get him 173 00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:58,620 out of there i you know it's it's hard to even imagine um reena switch gears briefly 174 00:16:58,620 --> 00:17:04,830 here for uh a second one things we wanted to do in our opening segments folks is tell 175 00:17:04,830 --> 00:17:08,549 you not only what's in the news like we're doing right now but also tell you a little 176 00:17:08,549 --> 00:17:13,150 bit about what's upcoming and i wanted to just do a start a little quick uh bit about 177 00:17:13,150 --> 00:17:18,640 what's buzzing right now in the field of ufology the one of the things here in the us that's 178 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,730 been kind of interesting is there's a new show out on showtime called the man who fell 179 00:17:22,730 --> 00:17:26,790 to earth and for those of you who remember it that's the one where david bowie back in 180 00:17:26,790 --> 00:17:33,880 1976 played an alien stuck on earth and uh it was quite a film and really made a huge 181 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:42,030 impact and now of course it is uh a limited series on showtime with uh chuatel agia four 182 00:17:42,030 --> 00:17:46,440 i think i got that name right in the lead role but what's wonderful about it is bill 183 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:52,820 nye the guy you remember from love actually and so many other things actually has the 184 00:17:52,820 --> 00:17:58,789 david bowie role and plays a character who's been stuck here on earth since 1976 since 185 00:17:58,789 --> 00:18:03,750 that film has ended and uh it's it's fantastic it's really i'm dying to say that i'm really 186 00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:06,710 looking forward to seeing that since you told me about it you know what's so interesting 187 00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:11,350 about it is it's not really anything about ufology it sort of lives in a world where 188 00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:16,160 there are new ufos at least so far from what i've seen it's just an alien thing but it's 189 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:21,490 always fun and we enjoyed that also coming up on may 3rd there's a new documentary out 190 00:18:21,490 --> 00:18:27,290 called a tear in the sky this is the upa x people and their investigation they're promising 191 00:18:27,290 --> 00:18:33,850 big things i've seen it um and while i don't uh you know i i'm i support the uap x mission 192 00:18:33,850 --> 00:18:38,900 and all of that of course uh which is to get data and to and to move things ahead without 193 00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:43,580 being dependent on the government to tell us what it's doing uh the the actual film 194 00:18:43,580 --> 00:18:48,679 itself does have a bit of familiarity it feels a little bit like an unidentified episode 195 00:18:48,679 --> 00:18:54,370 or or even uh you know an episode of skinwalker ranch um and it feels a little more like a 196 00:18:54,370 --> 00:18:59,520 tv show instead of a documentary people might want to listen to then of course close to 197 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:05,720 home for me the menville ufo festival after being dead for two years because of the pandemic 198 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:11,820 is back with whitley strieber and it's also got brian bender who we've talked about in 199 00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:17,900 it which is interesting may 13th and 14th is that right may 13th and 14th and the only 200 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:21,930 thing that i will say that is the kind of thing that makes you tear your hair out because 201 00:19:21,930 --> 00:19:27,669 it shows we were talking about how things like you know someone faking uh the mars photos 202 00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:32,890 is so damaging okay a few years ago when after disclosure came out with the book i wrote 203 00:19:32,890 --> 00:19:38,669 with richard dolan i created a time magazine with the mcminnville photos on the cover all 204 00:19:38,669 --> 00:19:45,330 right and i used it in uh various um presentations to say this is how the media should be covering 205 00:19:45,330 --> 00:19:50,970 ufos right it was and i never said it was anything other than that i made a big point 206 00:19:50,970 --> 00:19:57,000 about this is not real this is a fake to show you what i think they should be doing well 207 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:05,670 that fake that i created has been appropriated by the mcmenville ufo festival they're representing 208 00:20:05,670 --> 00:20:11,900 it as real yes and i've written them four times now and told them it is fake it's not 209 00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:16,210 real and yet they leave it up on their history page and all that's going to do all that's 210 00:20:16,210 --> 00:20:19,890 going to do is eventually somebody's going to come out of the custard and basically say 211 00:20:19,890 --> 00:20:25,100 oh look isn't this outrageous they're using a fake page that bryce is able used and created 212 00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:29,080 fictionally several years ago they're just leaving themselves wide open and by the way 213 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:35,620 folks mcminnville is of course in oregon it's the place where in two very very famous ufo 214 00:20:35,620 --> 00:20:41,710 photos came out that even uh the condon report couldn't uh say was wrong and so there they've 215 00:20:41,710 --> 00:20:45,751 stood the test of time now we're getting a bit long here because i know that we want 216 00:20:45,751 --> 00:20:50,480 to keep it fairly tight but i i just want to particularly mention the forthcoming moment 217 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:56,169 of contact documentary that our friend james fox is producing his documentary uh uh which 218 00:20:56,169 --> 00:21:00,660 is going to be i'm i'm getting very excited about this it's explaining what happened in 219 00:21:00,660 --> 00:21:08,540 vargin vashinha in brazil and uh i'm told by a friend who's actually had a look at the 220 00:21:08,540 --> 00:21:14,320 preliminary cut of the film this is going to be a cracker it's been another labor of 221 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:19,840 love for fox and you know he did the brilliant phenomenon last year which was just a great 222 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:25,320 film he's got peter coyote uh who's going to do the narration for this one as well and 223 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:30,830 it's going to be a crowded summer folks in july on july 10th cnn starts a five-part limited 224 00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:36,400 series um and so uh there's stuff breaking out all over and and and even sometime this 225 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:42,110 year uh the aerial phenomenon which is another big story is going to come out that's a beautiful 226 00:21:42,110 --> 00:21:47,470 story and it's got parallels with westall 1966 the australian case that i took such 227 00:21:47,470 --> 00:21:53,340 an interest in all these beautiful little kids that were filmed by the bbc uh talking 228 00:21:53,340 --> 00:22:01,090 about the fact that they allegedly saw a craft land in their school ground in zimbabwe and 229 00:22:01,090 --> 00:22:07,169 uh it's apparently an amazing film now this is the one by randall nickerson and he's got 230 00:22:07,169 --> 00:22:13,090 big shoes to fill because our friend james fox ended the phenomenon his movie from last 231 00:22:13,090 --> 00:22:20,909 year with the aerial uh schoolyard case so you know and he did a brilliant job with it 232 00:22:20,909 --> 00:22:25,320 so we've got a very busy next few months coming up bryce but you and i have also got an equally 233 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:31,470 busy podcast to film in the next few minutes so coming up i need to know are there going 234 00:22:31,470 --> 00:22:57,200 to be congressional hearings into uaps and should there be [Music] 235 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,900 welcome back to my snowy mountains studio i'm ross coulthart for need to know and i'm 236 00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:08,570 talking with my colleague bryce zabel this week about the possibility of congressional 237 00:23:08,570 --> 00:23:17,049 hearings into the uap issue now right back bryce as you will recall when the uap task 238 00:23:17,049 --> 00:23:23,250 force report was tabled in the congress last year in july i think it was july 20th june 239 00:23:23,250 --> 00:23:30,790 25th june 20th june 25th there was a lot of talk a lot of talk that there were going to 240 00:23:30,790 --> 00:23:37,490 be public congressional hearings i i think one of the people that spoke was um andre 241 00:23:37,490 --> 00:23:43,650 carson a democrat from indiana what did he say you know everybody uh sort of used the 242 00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:49,000 report as an opportunity to sort of talk about what was on their minds and these people are 243 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:54,929 of course congress men and women and senators so what's usually on their minds is you know 244 00:23:54,929 --> 00:24:00,390 how can we turn this into hearings because that's what they live for but carson uh was 245 00:24:00,390 --> 00:24:05,830 interviewed on uh cbs face the nation in the aftermath of that report and while this isn't 246 00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:09,600 the only thing ever said about congressional hearings i thought it was interesting let 247 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:15,059 me just read that quote he wrote or he said rather if it is otherworldly we have to take 248 00:24:15,059 --> 00:24:19,539 into account our advancements in terms of our cell phone technology and why are these 249 00:24:19,539 --> 00:24:24,360 images being captured we have to think about the nearly 4 000 satellites that are orbiting 250 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:29,299 earth right now most of these satellites have cameras attached to them he said why hasn't 251 00:24:29,299 --> 00:24:34,649 any of that information been released great question and so we still want to make sure 252 00:24:34,649 --> 00:24:39,510 that our adversaries don't have a technological edge on us but we still can't rule out that 253 00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:44,980 two to six percent that could be something we can't explain maybe even otherworldly and 254 00:24:44,980 --> 00:24:51,250 here's the kicker he writes he said so my hope is as the chairman of the subcommittee 255 00:24:51,250 --> 00:24:57,649 on counter intelligence and counter proliferation that we will have a series of hearings and 256 00:24:57,649 --> 00:25:04,890 possibly a public hearing in the very near future so there you go okay so i'm not holding 257 00:25:04,890 --> 00:25:11,590 my breath but the very key line that you mentioned in that is why hasn't any of that information 258 00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:16,340 been released and so i don't what i thought we should do in tackling this issue is to 259 00:25:16,340 --> 00:25:23,380 firstly take a long hard look at the history of attempts to hold congressional hearings 260 00:25:23,380 --> 00:25:28,110 into this issue i mean chris mellon the former deputy assistant secretary of defense and 261 00:25:28,110 --> 00:25:34,059 lou elizondo who was the head of the pentagon's ufo program have made no secret in numerous 262 00:25:34,059 --> 00:25:41,039 podcasts what they want is hearings they want they want the congress to be very visibly 263 00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:47,980 and publicly investigating this issue but what i heard from people at the time i was 264 00:25:47,980 --> 00:25:54,610 writing my book at the beginning of last year and what i hear now is very different and 265 00:25:54,610 --> 00:26:00,420 i think to understand why there's been a change why there's possibly a move now to more uh 266 00:26:00,420 --> 00:26:05,600 in camera hearings secret hearings it's because of the history of congressional hearings about 267 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:11,789 ufos as you and i have talked about previously uh bryce and previous need to know episodes 268 00:26:11,789 --> 00:26:19,679 there's a long history of the official investigations into ufos going right back to the 1940s with 269 00:26:19,679 --> 00:26:26,950 project sign project grudge and then the u.s air force's blue book investigation and am 270 00:26:26,950 --> 00:26:35,149 i right in saying mate that project sign and project grudge were a fairly decent objective 271 00:26:35,149 --> 00:26:42,230 attempt by the u.s air force and other defense agencies to be seen to be publicly transparently 272 00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:48,090 not publicly to be seen to be properly properly investigating the phenomenon and when you 273 00:26:48,090 --> 00:26:54,460 look at their archival documents those two early projects sign and grudge they did represent 274 00:26:54,460 --> 00:27:00,230 a very real effort by the u.s air force and other agencies back in the 40s and the 50s 275 00:27:00,230 --> 00:27:06,100 to properly investigate this issue well although the the question is they weren't doing it 276 00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:11,760 for the public at that time you know they were still it was all internal and they were 277 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,130 writing memos to each other and the reason we even know about all of this is the freedom 278 00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:20,860 of information act got a lot of those memos released and so forth but the interesting 279 00:27:20,860 --> 00:27:26,460 thing uh on the subject of congressional hearings is that among ufologists and people who care 280 00:27:26,460 --> 00:27:31,950 about uap and all that it's kind of the fever dream that you want to come true i mean the 281 00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:37,740 idea that we will finally not be ridiculed by the us government but that the government 282 00:27:37,740 --> 00:27:41,460 itself will hold these hearings and say yeah we told you they're real and now we're going 283 00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:46,070 to drag some people into congress and have them tell their story i mean that's something 284 00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:49,980 that again we'll talk more about in our third section when we're going to talk about the 285 00:27:49,980 --> 00:27:54,409 future of all this but uh it has been something that uh people on the outside have always 286 00:27:54,409 --> 00:27:58,690 wanted the reason i'm maybe a little more optimistic though than i think that you seem 287 00:27:58,690 --> 00:28:03,730 to be saying you are is that what has materially changed isn't what the air force was doing 288 00:28:03,730 --> 00:28:10,049 but in the congress if you were to sort of say anything about studying ufos or or having 289 00:28:10,049 --> 00:28:16,490 some kind of hearing about ufos or actually pulling in congress to it you stood the very 290 00:28:16,490 --> 00:28:22,320 real risk that you would be marginalized made fun of and uh and been uh characterized as 291 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,740 wasting the time of the congress during the cold war where things were just really critical 292 00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:35,240 and so a lot of congressmen as it turns out as we study the history had very uh great 293 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:40,039 interest in studying this but they were worried about it one of the guys though that didn't 294 00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:46,210 have that fear was uh john mccormick who was the speaker of the house a democrat and back 295 00:28:46,210 --> 00:28:53,060 in 1958 as early as 1958 when he was the majority leader he wanted to have hearings at the subcommittee 296 00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:59,210 on atmospheric phenomena of the house select committee on astronautics and space exploration 297 00:28:59,210 --> 00:29:04,340 and the thing that you and i seem to have stumbled acro upon on all of this is that 298 00:29:04,340 --> 00:29:10,100 it's one thing to want hearings but it's another to get them past the air force right absolutely 299 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:15,820 and look the thing that i find really disturbing is that if you look at the history of the 300 00:29:15,820 --> 00:29:23,220 us air force's involvement in public attempts to try and force transparency on uaps early 301 00:29:23,220 --> 00:29:29,760 on the u.s air force was privately very very concerned about the phenomenon and you can 302 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:35,690 see from project sign and project grudge the takeaway from that was that they were desperately 303 00:29:35,690 --> 00:29:41,590 keen to see it properly investigated and it all started to change around about 1952 after 304 00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:47,940 the washington flyover where there was that incredible display of uaps indisputably doing 305 00:29:47,940 --> 00:29:54,390 intelligently controlled things avoiding jet fighters uh zipping across radar screens at 306 00:29:54,390 --> 00:30:00,260 tens of thousands of miles an hour and there was a very clear beginning of a change especially 307 00:30:00,260 --> 00:30:06,570 from the u.s air force and the cia and you can see this in their documents and the thing 308 00:30:06,570 --> 00:30:11,560 the thing that i find fascinating i was going back through the archives and um there's a 309 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,970 lovely fella sean from witness citizen who's been very kind in helping me with this he 310 00:30:15,970 --> 00:30:22,190 pointed me to in 1961 there were and also dean johnson who does a fantastic twitter 311 00:30:22,190 --> 00:30:28,630 feed talking about the uh the work that used to go on in congress into uaps and the efforts 312 00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:35,929 that are still going on today what it shows is that back in the late 1950s and the early 313 00:30:35,929 --> 00:30:43,720 60s there was a push inside the congress for public hearings to bring people into the congress 314 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:49,440 to testify and the disturbing thing in the documents is that there are documents from 315 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:55,049 the u.s air force at the time that have been declassified that show the u.s air force trying 316 00:30:55,049 --> 00:31:01,470 to head off sure the inquiry and if they couldn't head it off what they were trying to do was 317 00:31:01,470 --> 00:31:07,210 to control the narrative control the narrative you know uh it is true in retrospect it's 318 00:31:07,210 --> 00:31:11,440 very fun to go look back at some of this stuff one of the things you can find is a newsweek 319 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:16,399 article from 1961 in july of that year where they're talking about the fact that congressional 320 00:31:16,399 --> 00:31:21,030 hearings on ufos are probably going to happen and of course that's the time when the air 321 00:31:21,030 --> 00:31:26,800 force said uh you know you you don't necessarily need we can look into this uh which is the 322 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:33,519 nice diversion but what i love about that time period you just brought up 1961 okay 323 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:39,620 in 1960 folks rosc admiral roscoe hillencotter you've heard us mention that name before he's 324 00:31:39,620 --> 00:31:47,039 the first head of the cia going back to its origin he in 1960 had left that position and 325 00:31:47,039 --> 00:31:53,600 joined nycap the national investigations committee on aerial phenomena and he was quoted in a 326 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:59,529 press release from 1960 saying that the first part of this is very familiar to a lot of 327 00:31:59,529 --> 00:32:05,470 people in ufology but not the last part so i'll read the quote behind the scenes high-ranking 328 00:32:05,470 --> 00:32:12,080 air force officers are soberly concerned about ufos but through official secrecy and ridicule 329 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,659 many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense hundreds of authentic 330 00:32:17,659 --> 00:32:23,510 reports by veteran pilots and other technically trained observers have been ridiculed or explained 331 00:32:23,510 --> 00:32:29,519 away as mistakes delusions or hoaxes the air force well there wouldn't you know that the 332 00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:35,559 air force has assumed the right to decide what the american people should or should 333 00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:41,600 not know and this is the part again that ties in with our program today he concluded by 334 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:47,430 saying it is time for the truth to be brought out in open congressional hearings and this 335 00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:52,789 is a former director of the cia bryce every time i read that roscoe hill and cut a line 336 00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:58,059 i i have to remind myself this is one of the i think he was the founding director of the 337 00:32:58,059 --> 00:33:04,260 cia it's quite what's fascinating and again this is not where we need to go today but 338 00:33:04,260 --> 00:33:08,760 shortly after he made that statement he sort of faded away from the scene and i think it's 339 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:14,200 probably because his friends in the air force and and in the government were saying roscoe 340 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,130 you're you're off the deep end here you know we're not going to go on this adventure with 341 00:33:18,130 --> 00:33:24,590 you but for whatever reason he backed off and go ahead yeah so the documents from the 342 00:33:24,590 --> 00:33:30,269 u.s air force show that when the congress in 1961 was talking about public hearings 343 00:33:30,269 --> 00:33:34,760 the foreign technology division of the u.s air force was getting so worried about the 344 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:41,040 risk of this happening that a colonel called edward nguyen wrote a memo proposing that 345 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:46,269 the air force preempt an approach from the congressional committee on science and aeronautics 346 00:33:46,269 --> 00:33:52,639 by offering to do its own investigation and that that would give the u.s air force full 347 00:33:52,639 --> 00:33:59,080 control of how that investigation would be done and i just want to remind you for a moment 348 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:05,429 the aoi msg which is the body that is now responsible for reporting to the american 349 00:34:05,429 --> 00:34:13,720 public and the world on what the us government knows about ufos it's quite clear that gary 350 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:19,470 reed's appointment as essentially the executive secretary the person who had overall control 351 00:34:19,470 --> 00:34:25,780 of that transparency proposal of what the congress would be told it's the same thing 352 00:34:25,780 --> 00:34:31,310 again i would argue yeah and i this is why it's so important this is why i want to remind 353 00:34:31,310 --> 00:34:36,000 people about don't get distracted about whether or not there was misleading or anything like 354 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,869 that and all that sort of rubbish the big issue as louis lozando has pointed out and 355 00:34:40,869 --> 00:34:46,960 as he's been proven right is that the history shows the us air force has repeatedly tried 356 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:53,820 to intervene to stop public scrutiny to stop public hearings is that what happened with 357 00:34:53,820 --> 00:35:00,570 the attempt to get gary reed the now very controversial former director of intelligence 358 00:35:00,570 --> 00:35:06,320 for the defence department in control of the aoi msg well i wouldn't be surprised i mean 359 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:13,250 history does tend to uh replicate itself listen let's dive back into the history for just 360 00:35:13,250 --> 00:35:20,120 a second so we can get this in because this 1960s had two things happen in terms of congressional 361 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:26,440 hearings that both were shocking in retrospect and both actually got minimized uh by the 362 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,660 air force as you've been stating but the first one that is close to me because i know a lot 363 00:35:31,660 --> 00:35:37,609 about it i sort of lived through that time i remember it happening it's the famous michigan 364 00:35:37,609 --> 00:35:44,480 sightings from 1966 where jl and hynek acting for blue book came out there and made uttered 365 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:50,770 the phrase swamp gas as a possible explanation which outraged the people of michigan because 366 00:35:50,770 --> 00:35:55,589 they were not seeing swamp gas they were saying craft and they knew they were seeing craft 367 00:35:55,589 --> 00:36:04,390 but here's why i freaking love this story is the congressman at that time in 1966 who 368 00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:09,579 represented michigan and was a comer in the u.s house of representatives was gerald r 369 00:36:09,579 --> 00:36:17,390 ford who would go on to become president and in 1966 uh eight years before he became president 370 00:36:17,390 --> 00:36:23,760 he advocated on behalf of the people of michigan that there should be public hearings he actually 371 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:29,680 said are we to assume that everyone who says they have seen ufos is an unreliable witness 372 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,810 i think we owe it to the people to establish credibility regarding ufos and produce the 373 00:36:34,810 --> 00:36:41,460 greatest possible enlightenment on this subject and he concluded i am proposing that either 374 00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:46,410 the science and astronautics committee of the armed services committee of the house 375 00:36:46,410 --> 00:36:51,990 schedule hearings on the subject of ufos and invite testimony from both the executive branch 376 00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:56,350 of the government and some of the persons who claimed to have seen ufos so he wasn't 377 00:36:56,350 --> 00:37:00,550 just saying let's bring in the air force experts he was saying let's haul in the executive 378 00:37:00,550 --> 00:37:05,470 branch and let's let the people speak as well i mean god blessed the man now what ended 379 00:37:05,470 --> 00:37:10,200 up happening is that it didn't go down that way the house armed services committee did 380 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,829 hold some brief hearings in 66 basically i think they went one day the secretary of the 381 00:37:15,829 --> 00:37:21,250 air force there we are again harold brown comes in and ross i bet you'll be shocked 382 00:37:21,250 --> 00:37:26,710 to hear what harold brown had to say but he said most of these sightings were easily explained 383 00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:31,230 and there was no evidence there were quote strangers from outer space and so there was 384 00:37:31,230 --> 00:37:36,280 nothing to see there and they went away look the real story from 1966 bryce and you and 385 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:43,180 i agree on this is that gerald ford despite his honorable motives was snowed he was he 386 00:37:43,180 --> 00:37:48,970 really was he was snowed or i or i just because i'm a paranoid about this thing and i know 387 00:37:48,970 --> 00:37:55,829 a lot about the jfk assassination gerald ford was on the warren commission so he he had 388 00:37:55,829 --> 00:38:01,740 already taken one for the system if you will i mean if indeed jfk was assassinated in a 389 00:38:01,740 --> 00:38:07,060 conspiracy and the warren commission did not find that to be true gerald ford was already 390 00:38:07,060 --> 00:38:13,640 willing to to say okay move on folks now there's another very interesting thing that came out 391 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,750 in one of those gerald ford press releases during that period in 1966 when he was pushing 392 00:38:18,750 --> 00:38:27,290 for hearings right because it turns out over the years there have been hush hush hearings 393 00:38:27,290 --> 00:38:33,510 so in uh when gerald ford did a press release in april 1966 he actually revealed that he'd 394 00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:39,210 learned that joseph carth who was a democrat from minnesota had held hush hush hearings 395 00:38:39,210 --> 00:38:46,670 back in 1961 on behalf of the house science and aeronautics committee so it turns out 396 00:38:46,670 --> 00:38:52,270 kaff told him that the subcommittee had made an oral committee oral report back to the 397 00:38:52,270 --> 00:38:58,220 main committee but that no public report was ever released the hearings took place in his 398 00:38:58,220 --> 00:39:05,390 congressional office and more importantly no record was made of any of the evidence 399 00:39:05,390 --> 00:39:11,380 from races and this is what i'm warning about because i i think that there is a danger that 400 00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:17,339 the same thing's going to happen again that at the moment we know there are already private 401 00:39:17,339 --> 00:39:23,690 hearings in camera hearings that have happened and i understand are still continuing to happen 402 00:39:23,690 --> 00:39:28,870 before key committees in the congress like the armed services committee the house intelligence 403 00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:36,510 committee then they're not being made public and and and that the lesson from history is 404 00:39:36,510 --> 00:39:41,869 that that will happen again if the public don't rattle the case i think we're in a different 405 00:39:41,869 --> 00:39:47,060 time my friend i just i am i'm all in on congressional hearings i think they're going to happen i 406 00:39:47,060 --> 00:39:53,210 just want to wrap up this segment for us real quickly because we're on the history in 1968 407 00:39:53,210 --> 00:39:58,180 two years after the ford issue that you were just talking about the house committee on 408 00:39:58,180 --> 00:40:03,849 science and aeronautics did conduct what they call the hearing except it wasn't it was technically 409 00:40:03,849 --> 00:40:08,660 called a symposium on unidentified flying objects so again we're not getting the full 410 00:40:08,660 --> 00:40:14,099 hearings we're getting them in somebody's office we're getting something called a symposium 411 00:40:14,099 --> 00:40:19,170 it again was very short but it did include testimony from jaylen heineck jim mcdonald 412 00:40:19,170 --> 00:40:23,680 carl sagan and some other guys as well as some written testimony that got put in the 413 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,070 congressional record but then again it was sort of like okay well we've done it we're 414 00:40:28,070 --> 00:40:33,341 moving on so okay we should move on i suppose into the next act of this thing i just want 415 00:40:33,341 --> 00:40:37,990 to make one final point though and that's that you cannot look at what's been happening 416 00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:43,070 in the congress at that time in the 1960s without also looking at the history of of 417 00:40:43,070 --> 00:40:48,920 the ongoing secret investigations that were going on and so we know that that because 418 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:57,109 of all the pressure that gerald ford imposed in october of 1966 the university of colorado 419 00:40:57,109 --> 00:41:03,599 was hired by the u.s air force to do a supposedly high caliber study of flying sources and that 420 00:41:03,599 --> 00:41:10,119 was an inquiry led by a guy called edward condom and he agreed to hit the program and 421 00:41:10,119 --> 00:41:14,820 he announced that he was an agnostic on the subject of ufos and that he had an open mind 422 00:41:14,820 --> 00:41:20,750 on the question and he thought that possible extra terrestrial or origins were improbable 423 00:41:20,750 --> 00:41:27,570 but not impossible but as we know now my friend condon's inquiry was subsequently revealed 424 00:41:27,570 --> 00:41:35,130 to be a blatant whitewash well not only that it was used to kill blue book in 1986 exactly 425 00:41:35,130 --> 00:41:40,589 exactly so so okay so when we come back folks one of the things we want to look at is we've 426 00:41:40,589 --> 00:41:46,560 given you a taste of the history sort of where we are in present tense let's talk about again 427 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,910 whether ross and i can agree whether they're likely or unlikely let's at least talk about 428 00:41:50,910 --> 00:42:12,770 what they might look like if we get to them that'll be next [Music] 429 00:42:12,770 --> 00:42:16,500 well we're back and i'd like to start this segment with a little bit of a thought experiment 430 00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:21,750 okay now i want you to imagine that someone who is extremely classified is brought into 431 00:42:21,750 --> 00:42:26,260 a public hearing in front of say the senate select committee on intelligence could be 432 00:42:26,260 --> 00:42:32,859 a general might have a dozen medals on his jacket could be a ceo from some southern california 433 00:42:32,859 --> 00:42:39,360 aerospace firm and whoever it is the sergeant of arms comes out there and asks them to raise 434 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,910 their hand and ask them a simple question and this is the thought experiment imagine 435 00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:49,380 the question being asked of some very highly classified or important people the question 436 00:42:49,380 --> 00:42:55,530 is do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you are about to give is the 437 00:42:55,530 --> 00:43:01,830 truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god now that's going to 438 00:43:01,830 --> 00:43:06,890 raise the stakes because even though people may have an agenda worked out and they may 439 00:43:06,890 --> 00:43:12,230 think that they know what the strategy is once you start putting people under oath uh 440 00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:17,950 things get a little unpredictable so ross i'm thinking i don't care how they get into 441 00:43:17,950 --> 00:43:23,440 uh hearings i just want them to get there because i'm ready to hear those answers okay 442 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:29,531 well i don't think it's enough and i've i i'm a bit of a a doubting polly on this one 443 00:43:29,531 --> 00:43:34,720 to be honest bryce because i've i've done a backflip with double pike i i was initially 444 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:42,500 in favor of open public congressional hearings but the more i learn and the more plausible 445 00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:47,809 possible explanations emerge in my mind as to why there might be the ongoing secrecy 446 00:43:47,809 --> 00:43:53,109 relating to this issue the more i think that the current strategy that's being employed 447 00:43:53,109 --> 00:43:59,970 of what are essentially private in-camera highly classified hearings is probably the 448 00:43:59,970 --> 00:44:06,490 best one for the moment and let me explain why i i think that if there's going to be 449 00:44:06,490 --> 00:44:12,210 any kind of hearing even if it's a private one the only way we're ever going to get to 450 00:44:12,210 --> 00:44:17,109 the truth of this matter and you and i don't disagree on this we both think there's a cover-up 451 00:44:17,109 --> 00:44:22,280 we both think the u.s government is hiding more than it knows but i think the only way 452 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,750 it's not enough to put somebody under oath the congress has to pass legislation that 453 00:44:27,750 --> 00:44:36,220 allows it to give an indemnity a full indemnity against prosecution that releases these people 454 00:44:36,220 --> 00:44:42,200 from the the oath that they've assigned witnessed immunity but how about the power of subpoena 455 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:47,280 too haul some of these people in you know make sure you use it but as as you and i both 456 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:54,330 know under the terms of waived unacknowledged special access programs theoretically people 457 00:44:54,330 --> 00:45:02,040 who know the most important secrets in the us government are obliged to lie so i don't 458 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:07,330 think it's enough just to say that you are now under oath i think it's important that 459 00:45:07,330 --> 00:45:10,609 that that people will be given immune it's not compromised it's not enough there have 460 00:45:10,609 --> 00:45:16,380 to be teeth obviously to it and the teeth are witness immunity subpoena use and and 461 00:45:16,380 --> 00:45:21,380 just the the will to do it you know i just wanted to throw one thought out here though 462 00:45:21,380 --> 00:45:24,930 i think i mentioned it earlier you know when richard dolan and i were writing our book 463 00:45:24,930 --> 00:45:29,750 a d after disclosure uh it was kind of a big bite that we bit off which is we're going 464 00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:33,930 to tell you what the world might look like after we all agree we're not alone i mean 465 00:45:33,930 --> 00:45:39,500 that's pretty shocking stuff and rich and i spent almost a year uh going back and forth 466 00:45:39,500 --> 00:45:43,960 on this and the one of the things that allowed us to sort of move forward is we we said the 467 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,930 future is often buried in the past in other words if you want to know what the future 468 00:45:47,930 --> 00:45:52,450 is going to look like look at some of the things in the past and draw your your lessons 469 00:45:52,450 --> 00:45:57,760 from them well on the issue of uh hearings for example there's a couple of things that 470 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:03,329 we could sort of ask ourselves yes i agree classified hearings probably do come first 471 00:46:03,329 --> 00:46:08,660 that's certainly the case right now with the january 6 commission's uh commission uh committee 472 00:46:08,660 --> 00:46:12,210 rather they've been talking about what happened on january 6 but then they're going to have 473 00:46:12,210 --> 00:46:17,070 public hearings and for people of a certain age you remember the senate watergate hearings 474 00:46:17,070 --> 00:46:22,630 again they started uh confidentially and then they moved into a public phase and when the 475 00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:27,940 senate watergate hearings happened in the summer of 73 americans were riveted i mean 476 00:46:27,940 --> 00:46:32,710 instead of watching their soap operas or anything else they were watching these hearings and 477 00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:38,240 i think the same thing could happen with public hearings about ufos and i think that they 478 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:44,540 give us some thoughts about how it might look because congress is willing to say okay we've 479 00:46:44,540 --> 00:46:50,030 got to keep this part of it special and we'll keep that still secure but we've raised enough 480 00:46:50,030 --> 00:46:55,290 issues by even having by even having reports written and the legislation they passed last 481 00:46:55,290 --> 00:47:00,170 year it's not outrageous for the american public to expect that there's going to be 482 00:47:00,170 --> 00:47:04,990 hearings of some kind the question is what's going to be in the hearings you know one of 483 00:47:04,990 --> 00:47:09,670 the things that i was very privileged in my journalistic career to witness was the south 484 00:47:09,670 --> 00:47:15,619 african truth and reconciliation commissions so after nelson mandela became the president 485 00:47:15,619 --> 00:47:20,610 in incredibly improbable circumstances you know the end of apartheid the the end of a 486 00:47:20,610 --> 00:47:27,160 racist regime a regime that had tortured and murdered in secret many people who were fiercely 487 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,680 opposed to the apartheid regime what mandela did and what his government mandated was quite 488 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:39,290 breathtaking it basically said there's no point in recriminations and it's important 489 00:47:39,290 --> 00:47:45,319 to have truth and it's important for the country to be reconciled after that truth is revealed 490 00:47:45,319 --> 00:47:50,559 now that's what i think i know people probably think we're being melodramatic here but if 491 00:47:50,559 --> 00:47:58,180 what you and i believe is true yeah the american public is headed for an absolutely momentous 492 00:47:58,180 --> 00:48:05,290 moment when they are told that their government has been lying to them and and in fact uh 493 00:48:05,290 --> 00:48:10,089 one of the things that uh we we talked about in that a.d book was exactly what you just 494 00:48:10,089 --> 00:48:14,990 said you can have congressional hearings and that exists on one level but at some point 495 00:48:14,990 --> 00:48:21,780 when the when the um when it's all come down you're going to have truth and reconciliation 496 00:48:21,780 --> 00:48:27,430 hearings that move from city to city around the country to bring the people into this 497 00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:31,600 and of course it won't just be the united states i mean once this breaks you're going 498 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:36,190 to have your country australia involved and every other country in the world is going 499 00:48:36,190 --> 00:48:39,910 to be involved i thought one of the things we might want to do as we pull this thing 500 00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:46,790 this train to the station here though is to ask ourselves if you here's the challenge 501 00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:51,260 let's say that we were the guys in charge of the committee in the senate select committee 502 00:48:51,260 --> 00:48:56,880 and we wanted to have public hearings um you and i have just done 12 episodes of need to 503 00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:01,780 know to try to sort of get people up to speed on things and and you know what we could do 504 00:49:01,780 --> 00:49:06,829 180 more we cannot do 500 more and there's still plenty of stuff to talk about we know 505 00:49:06,829 --> 00:49:10,700 that it never goes away so now if you're going to try to have congressional hearings what's 506 00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:17,470 the best way to do it and i have a few ideas but i'd love to hear your ideas well okay 507 00:49:17,470 --> 00:49:21,400 i i think the current strategy is a good one because i know because i've been talking to 508 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,049 some of the people that have been in the room when these people have been deposed there 509 00:49:25,049 --> 00:49:30,900 are already hearings happening i mean the armed services committee the uh senate intelligence 510 00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:36,840 committee a lot of those oversight committees are already deposing pilots defence officials 511 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:45,740 uh i think even an astronaut now what's interesting is it's all being done at the moment in camera 512 00:49:45,740 --> 00:49:52,890 yes and if let's just you should explain what in camera means though and camera means essentially 513 00:49:52,890 --> 00:49:59,200 people are talking under oath in hearings which are formal hearings but they are not 514 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:05,619 being made public they are being kept confidential let's just assume for a moment bryce that 515 00:50:05,619 --> 00:50:13,290 there is a very good reason why the us government has kept this secret let's hypothetically 516 00:50:13,290 --> 00:50:18,610 accept the possibility which you and i both believe is very highly the case very highly 517 00:50:18,610 --> 00:50:25,290 likely the case that the united states government is in possession of non-human technology possibly 518 00:50:25,290 --> 00:50:32,460 even craft let's assume they've kept that secret since the 1940s at the very least and 519 00:50:32,460 --> 00:50:38,160 let's assume that crimes have been committed serious crimes have been committed that the 520 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:44,430 congress has been misled presidents have been misled the public has been lied to by senior 521 00:50:44,430 --> 00:50:49,500 officials in the government there's been a serious mull administration a serious breach 522 00:50:49,500 --> 00:50:57,079 of process where public officials have felt obliged to lie and mislead i can understand 523 00:50:57,079 --> 00:51:03,170 why if that's the case there would need to be a private examination inside the congress 524 00:51:03,170 --> 00:51:08,290 of the full circumstances of why that has happened because one of the possibilities 525 00:51:08,290 --> 00:51:14,110 in my head and i'm only exploring exploring this as a hypothetical but one of the i'm 526 00:51:14,110 --> 00:51:21,010 a lawyer by background so i i'm looking for a legal out for these people is it possible 527 00:51:21,010 --> 00:51:26,160 that when the us government first became aware of the phenomenon and first became aware of 528 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:32,839 retrieved technology and its implications did a past president write an executive order 529 00:51:32,839 --> 00:51:40,000 which still remains secret to this day which ordered a secret program which ordered that 530 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:45,960 this be kept confidential from even presidents even from congress because it was such an 531 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:51,510 important secret to the united states oh it's clearly is that possible i think well not 532 00:51:51,510 --> 00:51:56,809 only is that possible but as we've talked about before i've written the entire 20 hours 533 00:51:56,809 --> 00:52:02,470 of a television series on that very premise uh literally in the pilot of dark skies the 534 00:52:02,470 --> 00:52:08,369 head of the majestic 12 organization tells the young recruit you know hey it's all perfectly 535 00:52:08,369 --> 00:52:12,970 legal eisenhower's the guy that signed it he didn't want kennedy to know that kind of 536 00:52:12,970 --> 00:52:18,710 thing so yeah i mean i think it's possible i certainly thought a lot about it um but 537 00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:24,000 but but can do i don't i'm not a constitutional lawyer in america but can a president really 538 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:31,799 do that well truman or eisenhower have signed an executive order in secret basically saying 539 00:52:31,799 --> 00:52:36,230 keep this secret don't tell any of my future presidents i don't think they'd get away with 540 00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:42,240 it today but you know it's another time you know in the 50s uh with the cold war sword 541 00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:47,089 hanging over us and all that so i don't know i mean because the way it seems to work now 542 00:52:47,089 --> 00:52:52,660 is you know trump comes you know obama does his executive orders trump comes in and gets 543 00:52:52,660 --> 00:52:57,890 rid of them and does his executive orders biden comes in gets rid of trump's executive 544 00:52:57,890 --> 00:53:04,319 orders and does his this would have to be the uh executive order extraordinaire obviously 545 00:53:04,319 --> 00:53:08,809 that has that has existed all these years now you asked me who should be brought in 546 00:53:08,809 --> 00:53:14,450 i mean obviously there's a there's a mischievous part of me that knows from the tong de long 547 00:53:14,450 --> 00:53:21,119 emails that right that were revealed by wikileaks because they were stolen by the gr gru russian 548 00:53:21,119 --> 00:53:27,109 military intelligence agents we know that tom delong was talking to general neil mccaslin 549 00:53:27,109 --> 00:53:32,500 the former boss of the u.s air force foreign technology division general michael carey 550 00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:39,310 we know that uh richard weiss from lockheed martin was also involved i mean some people 551 00:53:39,310 --> 00:53:44,910 out there in ufology might want to see these generals dragged into the congress with piano 552 00:53:44,910 --> 00:53:51,191 wire around certain sensitive parts of their anatomy and and basically told you know you 553 00:53:51,191 --> 00:53:56,060 will tell the congress the truth yeah i think well i don't know if they're going to have 554 00:53:56,060 --> 00:54:02,480 the piano wire around the testicles um that's possible uh but that that's probably not the 555 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:08,700 first choice but you know i think it's true i think people are going to have to be brought 556 00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:13,630 in that wouldn't ordinarily want to talk but they're gonna have to be told uh you either 557 00:54:13,630 --> 00:54:18,730 tell the truth now or you know you've got a window to tell the truth if you tell the 558 00:54:18,730 --> 00:54:22,990 truth now you're immune if you don't tell the truth we're gonna prosecute you but you 559 00:54:22,990 --> 00:54:31,390 know the thing i want to just kind of wrap this future vision aspect up um i'm a hollywood 560 00:54:31,390 --> 00:54:37,440 producer in my other uh lifetime of course and so i like to think of hearings as a show 561 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,700 that would have to be produced so i was asking myself what would i do if i was you know in 562 00:54:42,700 --> 00:54:47,880 charge of like figuring out how to tell this complicated story the first thing i do is 563 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:54,120 i i make it a little safe and i go with human interest i bring in some of those pilots and 564 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:59,780 i bring in some of those radar operators and i might tread the familiar semi-familiar story 565 00:54:59,780 --> 00:55:05,770 of nimitz just to get people used to it to see these pilots are real people to see them 566 00:55:05,770 --> 00:55:13,660 in front of the congress that kind of thing then after that i would try to do two things 567 00:55:13,660 --> 00:55:17,930 i'd try to have a couple of people who could come in and do what we've tried to do in this 568 00:55:17,930 --> 00:55:23,280 episode even which is to try to set a historical narrative but i'd also want to bring in the 569 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:28,160 mccaslins and those other generals you were talking about and so i'd want to pivot from 570 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:37,109 uh history into the present tense and the one thing i would do as well is i would borrow 571 00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:43,000 from gerald ford's first thoughts which is let's not just bring in the military even 572 00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:50,310 though it is a national security issue there is 75 years currently of people who have seen 573 00:55:50,310 --> 00:55:55,710 things and have told their families and their friends and their clergymen and you name it 574 00:55:55,710 --> 00:56:01,670 the police and everyone else i would make it a personal story uh at the same time i 575 00:56:01,670 --> 00:56:06,450 would make each one of those witnesses someone who was looking through the camera lens at 576 00:56:06,450 --> 00:56:11,580 the the people on the other side and i would i would try to turn those hearings into the 577 00:56:11,580 --> 00:56:15,539 most sensational hearing since the watergate hearings and i think they could be ten times 578 00:56:15,539 --> 00:56:20,599 as interesting to be honest with you well i sincerely hope they do happen bryce because 579 00:56:20,599 --> 00:56:26,920 there does need to be some kind of public accounting for this incredible cover-up i 580 00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:31,640 mean i i journalists don't normally believe in cover-up i very really believe in cover-ups 581 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:36,760 but in this case i do genuinely believe there has been a cover-up and how in heaven's name 582 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:43,880 america is going to handle the breach of public trust that is underlined by the revelation 583 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:51,799 that there has been such a serious withholding of important evidence that goes to not only 584 00:56:51,799 --> 00:56:57,160 our understanding of ourselves as human beings but you know our position is you know our 585 00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:03,849 understanding of ourselves in the universe i i really it's such a fundamental story it's 586 00:57:03,849 --> 00:57:09,849 fundamental and and you know again let's talk for a second and then i guess we wrap um a 587 00:57:09,849 --> 00:57:16,980 cover-up uh means different things to different people uh on one level you can have cover-ups 588 00:57:16,980 --> 00:57:21,540 that are illegal but on the other on a more personal level you can literally conspire 589 00:57:21,540 --> 00:57:27,150 with your children not to tell their mother that you uh you know burn down the kitchen 590 00:57:27,150 --> 00:57:32,300 you know whatever whatever it is can be a cover-up so uh and and people do it all the 591 00:57:32,300 --> 00:57:37,170 time on their own jobs i mean if i was producing a television series and we figured out that 592 00:57:37,170 --> 00:57:42,099 we'd over exposed all the film we might conspire not to tell the network we might conspire 593 00:57:42,099 --> 00:57:48,190 with the studio not to give them the bad news so there have been cover-ups some of them 594 00:57:48,190 --> 00:57:52,210 are worse than others and it's time we sort of sort that sort out the wheat from the chaff 595 00:57:52,210 --> 00:57:57,990 on this thing and uh you know as we uh as we say our sayonara here i think that uh you 596 00:57:57,990 --> 00:58:02,480 you just said it beautifully ross we have reached a point where we're gonna have to 597 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:08,030 clear this air one way or the other which is why i do think uh there is some legitimacy 598 00:58:08,030 --> 00:58:13,220 to the the public hearings because at a time in in the united states right now where the 599 00:58:13,220 --> 00:58:19,700 legitimacy of our institutions has never been lower and has never been uh more questioned 600 00:58:19,700 --> 00:58:26,940 by the the constituencies to those uh those secrets and so forth uh i think a breath of 601 00:58:26,940 --> 00:58:31,440 fresh air where you just blow in and you say we're gonna let some of the truth fall where 602 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:37,230 it may would allow people to say okay some of these things are legitimate national secrets 603 00:58:37,230 --> 00:58:42,869 and we won't tell everything but we have to at least do the one thing if the truth is 604 00:58:42,869 --> 00:58:48,680 after 75 years that we are not alone well we could start by just admitting that you 605 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:54,039 know let's let's get that started and on that note i think we should start thinking about 606 00:58:54,039 --> 00:58:58,770 wrapping up my friend i i do want to mention that in our next episode barring an avalanche 607 00:58:58,770 --> 00:59:04,070 of breaking news we're going to be taking a very close look at your incredible series 608 00:59:04,070 --> 00:59:10,490 from the late 90s darks guys i've been watching episodes over the last few months and i've 609 00:59:10,490 --> 00:59:15,440 got a lot of questions for you i love them and what i want to know is how much of what 610 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:20,900 you've written in there is based on ending of reality well okay roscoe i guess that means 611 00:59:20,900 --> 00:59:25,270 i got to start rescreening all these episodes myself or you're going to know my show better 612 00:59:25,270 --> 00:59:31,319 than i do because it's been a while you know um i look forward to that there are some really 613 00:59:31,319 --> 00:59:36,620 interesting inside stories and they do raise a lot of questions and it was one of my favorite 614 00:59:36,620 --> 00:59:42,970 times of my entire life certainly in my professional life and speaking about pain being caused 615 00:59:42,970 --> 00:59:47,869 to people's personal parts i understand you have a bit of a be in your bonnet bryce about 616 00:59:47,869 --> 00:59:53,859 some aspects of modern ufology that causes you just as much pain well you know ross uh 617 00:59:53,859 --> 00:59:58,839 i i love what we do on need to know and i think people like the fact that we spare them 618 00:59:58,839 --> 01:00:03,329 a lot of the other stuff and we we play it straight but you know every once in a while 619 01:00:03,329 --> 01:00:07,950 the writer producer in me says i got something else i want to say and i don't know that it 620 01:00:07,950 --> 01:00:14,160 belongs in this particular need to know so what we've done is uh created some of a piece 621 01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:19,810 of bonus material that people will be able to listen to um what i did is i just got in 622 01:00:19,810 --> 01:00:25,130 my head the idea that ufology today is a very complicated thing and i ended up writing something 623 01:00:25,130 --> 01:00:32,289 called a profane rant about modern ufology and i wrote it as a character not as myself 624 01:00:32,289 --> 01:00:37,410 okay so it's a character that's a combination of holden caulfield from uh catcher in the 625 01:00:37,410 --> 01:00:41,750 rye and hunter tell that i don't want to take it anymore is that right that's exactly and 626 01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:46,940 howard beal and even george carlin the great george carlin and i i managed to get uh ed 627 01:00:46,940 --> 01:00:51,991 hall to narrate it ed hall is the guy that was the announcer on the uh tonight show with 628 01:00:51,991 --> 01:00:57,039 jay leno for so many years so that's going to be a separate thing a profane rant about 629 01:00:57,039 --> 01:01:02,811 modern ufology you'll find it where your best podcasts are like need to know you know and 630 01:01:02,811 --> 01:01:08,020 just a final thought to you folks out there we love you watching listening to our podcast 631 01:01:08,020 --> 01:01:12,660 and we want to remind you to tell your friends to do so it's available through the usual 632 01:01:12,660 --> 01:01:17,210 suspects whether it's spotif well you already got it or you wouldn't be listening to us 633 01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:21,859 but other people want to know where they can get it uh everything from apple to spotify 634 01:01:21,859 --> 01:01:27,090 to iheart to wherever else but do listen tell your friends about it because uh you know 635 01:01:27,090 --> 01:01:31,400 we're all in this together yeah we hope you'll tell your friends and you have a lot of them 636 01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:35,450 it's it's really nice to know by the way from that we're hearing from people it's nice to 637 01:01:35,450 --> 01:01:39,600 get people's feedback that's one of the fun things about this show okay rosco we're going 638 01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:44,120 to wrap up and for everybody at home i would just say this we definitely can handle the 639 01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:51,349 truth people get ready and we can definitely handle public hearings into uaps [Music] we've 640 01:01:51,349 --> 01:01:57,289 got the right to choose it there ain't no way we'll lose it 641 01:01:57,289 --> 01:01:58,289 [Applause] [Music] 642 01:01:58,289 --> 01:02:06,690 don't pick up destiny cause you don't know us you don't belong